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No, Bums Are Not Richer Than You!

written by John Chow on December 20, 2008

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A couple days ago, my buddy Neil Patel made a post claiming that bums on the street are actually richer than the average American.

His rational for that conclusion came from a study that showed the average American household is $14,500 in debt. He also used a story about Donald Trump telling his daughter, Ivanka, that the bum they saw on the street was richer than him because the bum had no debt and he had tons.

I don’t know what to correct first. The post is full of so many errors and general misconceptions about financial planning that I think Neil wrote it just for linkbait. It wasn’t Ivanka who was with Donald, it was Marla. They weren’t driving, they were walking. The average American household may have $14,500 in debt but guess what? They have more than $14,500 in assets. So who’s richer?

If You Want To Become Rich, Get Into Debt!

In his post, Neil doesn’t make the distinction between good debt and bad debt. He just said pay off your debt. Let me tell you something, no one has ever gotten rich by paying off their debt. You need to know the differences between good debt and bad debt. Bad debt makes you poor, good debt makes you rich.

During the time Donald made the bum statement to Marla, his debt exceeded his assets by $800 million because of the NY real estate crash. One could say he had too much debt, but it was good debt, and he managed to restructure everything so he could service it and when the market came back, Trump was a Billionaire again. It should be noted that during the restructuring, Trump was limited to spending “only” $300,000 per month on personal living expenses. Ya, the bum was way richer than him!

There isn’t a single person on the Forbes 400 list that got there without using a ton of debt. The key is, they used good debt and avoided the bad debt. I would never run a credit card balance. That’s bad debt. However, I would have no problems going heavily into debt to buy an income producing asset. It’s really simple math.

Say you purchased a house for $500,000 and you used cash because Neil said debt was bad. If the house goes up by 10% in a year (not likely in this market but this is just an example), you’ll make $50,000 for a 10% return. However, if you put that $500,000 as a down payment on a $5 million property and it goes up 10%, your return becomes 100%. That is the power of good debt and how it can make you rich. This is what Trump does. If possible, he would try to set up the deal so he doesn’t have to put in any of his own money. Then his return is infinite.

The Mindset of The Rich

Neil got it right when he said you needed to change your mindset if you want to get rich. But his advice on paying off debt is really the mindset of the poor, not the rich. They say successful people think differently than unsuccessful people. That’s not true at all. They don’t think differently, they think opposite.

An unsuccessful person hates failure. A successful person welcomes failure because he knows failure is a requirement for success. An unsuccessful person works hard for money. A successful person has money work hard for him. An unsuccessful person takes. A successful person gives. An unsuccessful person think a job is safe and investments are risky. A successful person thinks a job is risky and investments are safe. An unsuccessful person hates debt. A successful person loves debt. The list goes on, but the point is a successful person has an opposite attitude from an unsuccessful one.

If you want to be successful, the first thing you need to change is your attitude. If you have the attitude of an unsuccessful person, then no amount of reading, couching or training is going to make your successful. Once you change your attitude, things will open up for you.

Whatever you do, don’t have the mindset of a bum. Even if your debt is greater than your asset, you’re still way richer than him. Just ask Donald. :twisted:

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"If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem."
JP Getty

Simply because Donald was spending $300,000 a month in living expenses does not mean that he was richer than the bum. In fact at that point he was poorer than the bum because he had a significant negative net worth. The advantage he had over the bum was that he had the potential to become rich again.

I do agree with John that there is good and bad debt but what John did not mention is that leverage works both ways. Yes, you will make a lot more money on a leveraged investment IF the investment goes up. But you will also lose a lot more than just your principal if it goes down! Taking John's example, a $5 million property purchased in Florida mid 2006 with only $500K down payment would result in a negative 300% return today!

I posted additional details on this discussion here: http://www.contrariangoldfish.com/are-street-bums-...

"Rich" can mean several things to different people and we've just been looking at it from the perspective of money.

I suppose someone could say that a bum is also rich because they're "free" in a way to do almost whatever they want, when they want and have no real constraints from work, etc.

But the social depravity that one must go through on the street like that transcends anything related to money...

Hi John,

I'm a good friend of Neils and was the one who actually told him the original story of Donald Trump. I decided to write a post after your reply to explain what the original intent behind the story is.

Here is the link:

http://www.persuasive.net/when-the-going-gets-toug...

I have been studying and been actively participating in personal development/self help for many years. I wouldn't say I've mastered human communication, but I'm unquestionably closer than most. Let me know what you think.

Makes cents to me! =)

Well, at least i'm not in debt and a big reason is that i don't spend on things I can live without eg latest gadgets and latest music ;)

John,
First off thank you for your website. COngrats on your success you have achieved.

Debt for me was a four-letter word - I was old-school in the sense of save and pay cash.
WHile I still hate bad debt, ironically it took the recession to realize that good debt is , well good. With wages at jobs being constrained, and mass lay-offs esp. in high paying jobs like manufacturing...I was left with no choice but to take some risk as such.

It was upon realizing that debt used for income-producing assets, that I am now becoming closer to achieving financial security.

There are some topics for which there is no right or wrong answer ... it all depends on one's point of view. This seems like one of them.

I'd rather be rich than poor.

Robin

Very good post. Neil's post does seem like linkbait, but it worked didn't it?

This just reminds me of a bum that use to "work" at the same location as me. He sat outside on the sidewalk. Actually he sat on a 5 gallon bucket .. a 5 gallon bucket that he filled with the money people gave him as they walked by. He bought me lunch on several occasions .. he took a 30 minute lunch break just like us .. when we clocked out so did he .. he walked with us 2 blocks to the parking garage everyday only he drove off in a new porsche and headed home to a 2+ million dollar house .. I left in my mustang and headed to my apartment .... sucks I know .. but 2 years later when they cracked down on panhandling and seized a billion dollars in local property I didnt feel so bad. :)

I guess everyone is more or less in debt.That´s why lots of people turn to the internet and has hopes to make lots of money quickly, and so many still fail at it.Will they be the next ones on the street?

Maybe Neil was just having "Bloggers Block" and started in on a ramble not really paying any attention to logic ! Knowing the difference between good debt and bad debt is criticial. If we are all honest we all probably have some ratio of good:bad. I know I do, but fortunately its much in favor for the good.

this is a great post, i never thought of being in debt as a good thing until i read this post, basically more of an investment move

remember though that "good debt" is something that you can pay off right then or at least have enough assets to do so. You can buy a "good" investment on a credit card but if you have to pay interest for 5-10 years to get a return that might not be a good idea.

I like the contrast of the mindsets.

The key with the law of leverage is it works both ways. Real Estate is a prime example.

It's not only our asset to debt ratio to take into consideration, our good name has lots of value too.

A bum on the street has no credit, and likely would have few connections to any wealthy individuals.

Establishing a name for yourself and maintaining a good reputation (with your credit score and with people) has a huge value that cannot easily be measured.

I agree completely John. Positive financial leverage through good debt acquisition is a sure way to the top. I am a big fan of the Trump and have been to a couple of his wealth building seminars. It's simple math... As long as you take in more money than the cost of the loan and operating expenses then you will come out ahead. A lot of people are afraid to take this kind of debt risk. No Risk = No Gain. Trump risked his way all the way to the top!

Well put John.

It's good to be out of debt, but to have no assets and no money doesn't make you a wealthy man.

Hey John, you've got it to the point. Thanks a lot for your nice tipps.

@HatLord: good Idea - but I'm not shure how it works

I'm not a financial analyst, but one thing is for sure that the american financial policy has proved to be wrong and that the recent recession has proved that too. They have been supporting mostly the non-productive areas rather than the more productive areas.

I like the analysis part that you've done John, and I also admire donald trump too.

For all you bums out there, go get a JOB

Okay, first, what you are talking about are retained assets in a depreciating market.

So when you say debt; you aren't actually saying debt. Debt is measured as an existing claim against the holder of an account that has exceeded it's capital balance of zero.

Also, what you said about real estate is a bit on soft side of understanding how financial gains work versus assets.

You don't actually have 50k on a 10% gain against a 500k home. You can't measure the value of a home in liquid assets unless you sell the property. As most people will continue to either live in their homes or borrow against them; that money isn't liquid at all.

And, if they sell their home, there is a good chance that they will have to decrease their standard of living in order to maintain those newly acquired liquid assets.

There are many forms of capital gain; but the illusion of housing is beginning to come home to roost.

It's sort of like people that believe they can outsource jobs without consequence to their product markets. The results of this can be seen in the dying auto industry; as their most-repeated customers were their own workers. Something that Henry Ford established a precedent with; when he advocated and enforced the 40 hour work week.

Now that all of the Ford workers are laid off and their jobs are in Mexico, who is going to buy their big, crappy SUVs?

Money is just more complicated.

Donald Trump is a mastermind. I have read his book and know of the story well. Good thing you also, did not use his name on your heading or he be heading for you. lol

I have previously written a post on bloggin-ads before about how homeless people are definitely more richer than us. It was based on a experiment that the team at hostgator did. They went on the streets one by one and made a whole load of money!

-Mike

p.s. Most homeless are college graduates with degrees :(

i have been a bum and sometimes "bums" are richer than the most wealthiest people on the planet there is more to life than monetary wealth. And this is how i lived my teenage years. But as i got older i realized that monetary wealth is important know i have a thriving business iam 26. I recently sold my business and iam investing my time and money online...Wish me luck lol....i have been making money so far!

Good luck.

PS: You should get a website. Linking to your email address on a popular public blog is a very, very bad idea.

While there is distinction between good and bad loans, we also have to remember to be able to make the payments when things go sour. T

"The average American household may have $14,500 in debt but guess what? They have more than $14,500 in assets." Which has been built/bought on DEBTS(most?, a few?, none?)! Therefore they are 2*$14,500 = $39,000 in debt.

"However, if you put that $500,000 as a down payment on a $5 million property and it goes up 10%, your return becomes 100%"
constantine made the point about this above (i.e. if it goes down you are totally wiped out)

This is the doctors' description for the sickness.
http://vimeo.com/2244372

You just proved my point. I never said money isn't debt. It is. So if you want a lot of money, what do you need a lot of? Pretty simple, huh? :)

Obviously a lot of debt. In a microeconomics level you are right. If you play the game you get to win. But being all time on debt is not what it should be. You should pay them at some point. :)

No! F*** U , It really doesn't means if I don't have any debt( actually I have never took one- as I haven't had such an need) Then I'm broke poor looser!

You may not be a broke poor loser but you'll never join the ranks of the super rich either.

I can see this becoming a very popular post on your blog John!! it has already gotten some very indepth responses!! :)

Nice post John.. The reason I like JohnChow.com is because I learn something new when ever I visit it.. Not going to comment on the above article as the above people have already done the needful.. Cheers ! :D

I really loved your friends comparison of the bum to a be far richer than average american 'cuz he had no debt. Thats creative thinking i guess.

Good analogy John , while Neil has a web business the dynamics compared to a real estate business is very different

Well Said, I'd hate to think a bum was richer than any of the average american or english man.

Great reactions there..
Well said chow.

Good point John...

Neil made his money in web businesses I assume - so he is probably unfamiliar with the world of real estate investing - one of the best wealth building vehicles where it's absolutely recommended to use "other people's money" - i.e. debt.

I happen to do a bit of both. Own a web business (www.universitytutor.com) and also 3 rental properties. I don't believe in taking on debt or venture capital to start a web business but for real estate absolutely.

Btw, I think the term you were looking for when comparing how much debt you have with how much you have in assets - net worth! Sure you know this, just wanted to point it out.

Thanks,
Brian
www.StartBreakingFree.com

Neil is just right... I guess you need to take some economy lessons John. :)

He doesn't need to.. He doesn't even have enough time to count his cash..

Great post John... It's obvious that you've done your homework, and know this material.

And, that original post was pretty crazy. I don't understand why people feel the need to write about stuff they don't have a clue about.

John, I know what you're getting at. You're using teachings from Rich Dad, Poor Dad and other similar books. You think that Neil got it wrong in many ways, but I think you kill lessen your own authority when you starting using "absolute" ideas that create massive generalizations. "No one has ever gotten rich by paying off their debt" is a very large generalization. I know plenty of people who have paid off all of their debt and have multi-million dollar valuations. In fact, the book, The Millionaire Next Door, profiles a number of people who have paid off debt and have over $1m in assets.

To say that they think differently is probably true in many ways. To say every successful high net worth person thinks the opposite of someone that isn't is extreme and makes your teaching have less authority.

Meanwhile, what's the reason you're shopping around Vancouver for multi-million dollar residential, single family homes?

You made a key point. They have paid off all their debt and have multi-million dollar valuations. Did they pay off the debt when the valuation was only in the $100K or so? I doubt it. Debt build wealth. Yes, there will be a point when you will want to pay that debt off but for a successful person, it's generally when they wish to slow down and are already rich. I don't think Bill Gates has any debt now. :)

My reason for shopping for house at this time is easy. Houses are on sale!

I doubt Microsoft has had any debt their entire time, as I'm sure I've read around that the Yahoo deal would have been the first time they went into debt.

Since MS is a public company that is very easy to look up. At this time MS is debt free but they have access to a $2 billion unsecured line of credit that they can tap into for any reasons.

I did do some research before posting that here John. After all, you can't go in front of an influential and powerful blogger such as yourself without it ;)

They, however, have not used their line of credit, so it proves that you can become rich by not using debt.

While MS doesn't have any debt now, they had a ton during their start up and growing years. I've been a MS shareholder for sometimes now.

This doesn't have any effect on what I said. No one, person or company, have gotten super rich without using a lot of debt. That debt can come in the way of loans from banks or shareholders. When MS went public, they were basically borrowing from shareholders. Bill had to give up a lot of ownership in MS because of it. Now had Bill not done that, he would own 100% of MS today. But would MS be anywhere near the size it is now? I doubt it.

Is it better to own 100% of a company worth $4 million or 10% of a company worth $140 billion? Like I said, it's simple math. :)

You're not technically borrowing from shareholders because you are not taking money from anyone, but instead you are selling something you already have, which defeats the meaning of debt.